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Post by Drifter on Oct 27, 2019 8:46:44 GMT -5
No amount of effort could make anyone understand your comments. tnthomas comments are clear as a bell. Those with comprehension skills understand them. No, it's hearsay...definition: "information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 13:01:12 GMT -5
On this whole FACT issues, they change all the time and depends who writes them etc. Fact is forever changing.
I believe a FACT in my life is Grape Seed Extract has kept me from allergy and sinus drugs and allergy doctors, I've had a lot of experience there, but it's MY fact and have believed this FACT on my health for probably 24 yrs or so. NO DRUGS is a big fact for me.
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Post by Drifter on Oct 27, 2019 13:42:03 GMT -5
Fact is forever changing. You believe in alternative facts then, which are nothing more than your "alternative interpretation " of a fact to suit your own need. I believe a FACT in my life is Grape Seed Extract has kept me from allergy and sinus drugs and allergy doctors Thought this thread was about cortisone, not grape seed extract. But, wouldn't your statement quoted above be hypocritical? To say it's fact that something works for you, yet, you questions what works for others?
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Post by tnthomas on Oct 27, 2019 14:04:56 GMT -5
On this whole FACT issues, they change all the time and depends who writes them etc. Fact is forever changing. I believe a FACT in my life is Grape Seed Extract has kept me from allergy and sinus drugs and allergy doctors, I've had a lot of experience there, but it's MY fact and have believed this FACT on my health for probably 24 yrs or so. NO DRUGS is a big fact for me. ...BUT, do you see what you are doing? "I believe that..." is a belief, and it is rock solid in your mind, and you then accept it as a "fact". BUT, that does not satisfy the broader definition of what a fact is. fact noun \ ˈfakt \ Definition of fact
1a : something that has actual existence space exploration is now a fact b : an actual occurrence prove the fact of damage 2 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality These are the hard facts of the case. 3 : the quality of being actual : actuality a question of fact hinges on evidence
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 14:47:26 GMT -5
Fact is forever changing. You believe in alternative facts then, which are nothing more than your "alternative interpretation " of a fact to suit your own need. I believe a FACT in my life is Grape Seed Extract has kept me from allergy and sinus drugs and allergy doctors Thought this thread was about cortisone, not grape seed extract. But, wouldn't your statement quoted above be hypocritical? To say it's fact that something works for you, yet, you questions what works for others? I suit the FACTS that have worked in my life, sudafed, drixoral and allergist and his tests and shots did not work, I never got rid of my allergy issues. The DRUGS did not work. If one wants to mention Alternative Facts that's their choice. That was NOT my intention. I'm talking about FACTS in general. And I'm not questioning what works for others..... Grape Seed Ex has been a major FACT in my life. And my good eyesight, good healthy gums, good hearing -- I believe are also from taking Grape Seed Ex so many years. But fact I can't say that....as I never took drugs etc for those 3 health areas of my body. But at 81, it's a pretty good chance that this antioxidant has been a major FACT in my life.
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 15:26:11 GMT -5
And I bring up Grape Seed Ex as it is a big FACT in my life for a major amount of healing. It's wonderful to have NO colds, NO flu, NO sore throats, NO drugs that I had used for years before the Grape Seed FACT.
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Post by good4nothin on Oct 27, 2019 15:46:28 GMT -5
And I bring up Grape Seed Ex as it is a big FACT in my life for a major amount of healing. It's wonderful to have NO colds, NO flu, NO sore throats, NO drugs that I had used for years before the Grape Seed FACT. Maybe what drifter and tnthomas mean is that, in order to be a FACT there would have to be controlled scientific experiments that demonstrate it. If we experience something directly, we can't be absolutely sure that it's a fact. So we should always doubt ourselves, and never take any kind of medicine or supplements until science has shown that they definitely work as they are supposed to. But drifter and tnthomas might not know all the "facts" about scientific research. For one thing, nothing can be demonstrated by science unless someone thinks it's worth doing research on, which often requires large amounts of time and money. Unless the government or big drug companies, etc., decide to fund research on something, the research will not occur. How likely is it that big drug companies want to research grape seed extract? They also may not be aware that possible drug interactions are generally not tested. There are too many possible combinations of drugs. So patients on multiple drugs are guinea pigs. They also might not be aware that medical research is confusing, even for experts, and is often deceptive. Drug companies want their research to turn out a certain way, and it can be made to look as if drugs are safe and effective even when they aren't. And I think drifter and tnthomas might not have enough respect for non-experts and our ability to evaluate what works for us, or not. I have taken many expensive supplements in the past, trying to get rid of an allergy, that did not work. I knew they didn't work. There was no placebo effect, no benefit from wishful thinking. The vitamins, etc., I was given by a doctor (MD, but also naturopath) had no effect at all on my allergies. In the past, I also was given drugs that did not work, for fibromyalgia. The only thing that works for me most of the time is yoga. I have experienced this hundreds of times. I get a pain, or an allergy, or whatever, and yoga fixes it or at least helps a lot. I do not imagine this. It is not a placebo effect, or wishful thinking. It has happened so many times that I am absolute sure. There is scientific research showing benefits of yoga. But not for each of the things it has helped me with. Should I stop doing yoga for these things and wait until research has demonstrated that it isn't just my imagination? Should joymarty stop taking grape seed extract and wait until there is scientific evidence that it's good for all the things she uses it for? That might never happen. She got all these benefits without the help of medical doctors or drug companies. I see nothing at all wrong with that. And she tries to help others by telling them about it.
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 16:00:34 GMT -5
Thanks G4N, and all I can say is that Scientific FACT world must think highly of the antioxidant Grape Seed Extract as the clinical research places like Mayo, City of Hope and others have done clinical trials for cancers of the Breast, Colon, Prostate and Skin. You can check out that FACT if you care to.
Grapes can't be patented or they may have come out with drugs already for these cancers, could be I don't know.
I just know when I started on this antioxidant in 1995, we were told my MD's and researchers, it MAY prevent cancers...that's WHY I got on it. First thing to go was allergies.
Love how so many know as much as I do who has been working with this powerful FACT for going on 25 yrs. And it's about being at the right place at the right time and life is majorally TIMING, and that's FACT.
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Post by good4nothin on Oct 27, 2019 17:30:47 GMT -5
Thanks G4N, and all I can say is that Scientific FACT world must think highly of the antioxidant Grape Seed Extract as the clinical research places like Mayo, City of Hope and others have done clinical trials for cancers of the Breast, Colon, Prostate and Skin. You can check out that FACT if you care to. Grapes can't be patented or they may have come out with drugs already for these cancers, could be I don't know. I just know when I started on this antioxidant in 1995, we were told my MD's and researchers, it MAY prevent cancers...that's WHY I got on it. First thing to go was allergies. Love how so many know as much as I do who has been working with this powerful FACT for going on 25 yrs. And it's about being at the right place at the right time and life is majorally TIMING, and that's FACT. Most of the time, when I post here, it's to explain why we should think for ourselves, rather than have blind faith in medical experts. The experts don't know everything, and sometimes experts are trying to sell us something we don't need, or may be harmful. Searching online is an efficient way of finding information on health. But you have to be skeptical and careful. Information can be put online by anyone. You can't trust any one source -- you have to compare various sources. For example, Mercola sometimes has interesting information, but he is obviously extremely critical of mainstream medicine. Therefore, I don't trust his opinions and always check with other sources. And I always read the mainstream sites, like WebMD and MayoClinic. And I don't trust them either, because they might not know about some alternative ideas. When we or people we care about get sick, we have to work at finding answers. Simply trusting your MD can be a big mistake. It's so much easier to trust the experts, and most people don't want to spend all those hours searching online. It's hard work and it's confusing. I started this thread to show an example of someone whose health was damaged by cortisone. She was trusting and did not have a computer to search for information. Even if she had a computer, maybe she wouldn't have. If I hadn't investigated for her, she would still be getting cortisone shots. Drifter and tnthomas ignored the important message of my post. Tnthomas thought it was a joke when I said it was a good thing I found the information online. The information I found was in mainstream scientific journals. I didn't read it on the Mercola site, or a chiropractor's site. It was peer reviewed scientific research. Not that Mercola and chiropractors' information is worthless. It can be very valuable. But I always check with mainstream websites and journals. When I am researching a medical topic, I read a lot, from all kinds of sources. I read articles by experts, and I read what patients have to say. I have been doing this for many years, and it is not a joke. Before the internet, I got information from libraries. But the internet gives us access to an amazing amount of information, of all kinds. To not use this resource, to trust whoever happens to be your medical doctor, is really a mistake. Not everyone has health problems, but everyone needs to understand something about health.
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 17:38:35 GMT -5
Bottom line, my preference is NOT to support pharma world. They have so much $$$$ and when I think of the people who can't buy a drug their MD writes for them as they can't afford it...I want to scream. Then there are all the side effects from the drugs as an added bonus...Enough from me now, I live with a group of side effects that haunt me all the time.
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Post by Drifter on Oct 27, 2019 17:49:35 GMT -5
And I think drifter and tnthomas might not have enough respect for non-experts and our ability to evaluate what works for us, or not. What a hypocrite!
When will you learn to have enough respect for the others, when they share what works for them?
It's only an assumption on your part to know what is going through our heads, Dr. good4nothin.
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Post by tnthomas on Oct 27, 2019 18:40:58 GMT -5
Maybe what drifter and tnthomas mean is that, in order to be a FACT there would have to be controlled scientific experiments that demonstrate it. That is the basics. Definition of fact
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact. 2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact. 3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. If we experience something directly, we can't be absolutely sure that it's a fact. This is incorrect, in so far as to what I have said. So we should always doubt ourselves, and never take any kind of medicine or supplements until science has shown that they definitely work as they are supposed to. It is always good to exercise caution, keep your eyes open and avoid unproven remedies. A fact is a true statement about something. Opinions are internal beliefs, and should not be proclaimed to be "the truth" on that basis alone.
People get sued, people die from bogus "facts".
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Post by joymarty on Oct 27, 2019 19:56:57 GMT -5
Maybe what drifter and tnthomas mean is that, in order to be a FACT there would have to be controlled scientific experiments that demonstrate it. That is the basics. Definition of fact
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact. 2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact. 3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. If we experience something directly, we can't be absolutely sure that it's a fact. This is incorrect, in so far as to what I have said. So we should always doubt ourselves, and never take any kind of medicine or supplements until science has shown that they definitely work as they are supposed to. It is always good to exercise caution, keep your eyes open and avoid unproven remedies. A fact is a true statement about something. Opinions are internal beliefs, and should not be proclaimed to be "the truth" on that basis alone.
People get sued, people die from bogus "facts".
And people die from all the so called proven health facts, like drug interactions with the stamps of approval from pharma, over 100,000's death annual just from drug interactions. And did anyone here ever attempt a medical lawsuit, at one point our family was sitting in a medical malpractice attorney's office and went home with no hope and I talked to 3 lawyers on m knee staph infection negligence and they blew me off, I wasn't close enough to death.
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Post by good4nothin on Oct 27, 2019 22:04:43 GMT -5
Maybe what drifter and tnthomas mean is that, in order to be a FACT there would have to be controlled scientific experiments that demonstrate it. That is the basics. Definition of fact
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact. 2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact. 3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. If we experience something directly, we can't be absolutely sure that it's a fact. This is incorrect, in so far as to what I have said. So we should always doubt ourselves, and never take any kind of medicine or supplements until science has shown that they definitely work as they are supposed to. It is always good to exercise caution, keep your eyes open and avoid unproven remedies. A fact is a true statement about something. Opinions are internal beliefs, and should not be proclaimed to be "the truth" on that basis alone.
People get sued, people die from bogus "facts".
You left out the whole point of my comment!! But drifter and tnthomas might not know all the "facts" about scientific research. For one thing, nothing can be demonstrated by science unless someone thinks it's worth doing research on, which often requires large amounts of time and money. Unless the government or big drug companies, etc., decide to fund research on something, the research will not occur. How likely is it that big drug companies want to research grape seed extract? They also may not be aware that possible drug interactions are generally not tested. There are too many possible combinations of drugs. So patients on multiple drugs are guinea pigs. They also might not be aware that medical research is confusing, even for experts, and is often deceptive. Drug companies want their research to turn out a certain way, and it can be made to look as if drugs are safe and effective even when they aren't.
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Post by tnthomas on Oct 28, 2019 0:52:02 GMT -5
You left out the whole point of my comment!! Not sure what you're referring to, my post is directed at matters I consider important. But drifter and tnthomas might not know all the "facts" about scientific research. For one thing, nothing can be demonstrated by science unless someone thinks it's worth doing research on, which often requires large amounts of time and money. Seriously? Your condescending attitude is showing again. Unless the government or big drug companies, etc., decide to fund research on something, the research will not occur. How likely is it that big drug companies want to research grape seed extract? Grape seed extract has been researched, nccih.nih.gov/health/grapeseed/ataglance.htmMaybe not yet ready for major commercial exploitation as an upper tier drug product, still only as a supplement.
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