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Post by Fireheart on Mar 8, 2017 17:20:46 GMT -5
To begin, I'll give my first question and that is: Do you believe that religious discrimination is alive and well here in the US?
You can look at this from several stances. First, we have those who are Christian stating that they should be able to deny people services because of their beliefs and that if they can't deny those people, it is a "war against Christianity" going on in the US. Second, we have Muslim women being called out or even picked on for wearing their Hijab in instances where this would stand out...such as beaches or at the pool. We also have Jewish cemeteries being defiled and Jewish schools having bomb threats called into them. There are many other instances, but these are just a few examples.
My next question is: Do you believe that each of these examples is an example of religious discrimination...and if not...why? I'm hoping for a good discussion out of this...as it was amongst some friends of mine. I'd like your honest and open thoughts.
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Post by rebecca2013 on Mar 8, 2017 21:20:05 GMT -5
... With no doubts, there is a definite religious discrimination which is exacerbated by the current divided nature of thinking here in the United States. My dear friend Randah from the FBI wears a Hijab to work and other places... At the FBI she said sometimes... even there she has certain "feelings" that people are looking at her "differently" In public in certain stores, she feels that she is "overly" watched which amuses her being that she is a FBI Special Agent but she said in conversation that she has become indifferent as you can't change people's preconceived notions about Muslims. Visibility of course is a key element(wearing of the hijab) is associated with greater perceived discrimination. Studies have shown that perceived discrimination among Muslim Americans is related to the expression of increased vigilance and suspicion. This has been heighten by the increased focus and paranoia from the very top structures of this government. As for my Jewish friends, they have cited that since the election season and now.... they have felt that the racism and overtones have been on the increase. One of my staff is an ordained rabbi who has suffered having paint splattered all over his car, had his wife's car tires slashed (all four) and indicated that he had to actually move to another area in December because of these issues... One could argue that it was just random vandalism but I think David was correct as he was a visible target. He wears a kippah, and like a hijab, undeniably places him within that religion on sight. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter in an area which was hands down Trump.. Does this mean anything? Perhaps not but his sign for his support was ripped twice and painted with a swastika... I am not sure if it was a comment against David and his family or of Bernie but in either case he felt pressure to move out. Why is this happening? I believe that certain elements have slipped out of the swamps and are feeling emboldened. There is a lot to be said for having a good deal of important people in high places who have shadowy backgrounds and spew racism, White supremacy and who espouse and openly endorse violence. And Mexicans?? Just look at popular culture for a moment... Mexicans are often portrayed as drug dealers, lawn workers and corrupt policemen in the movies. Most are Catholic and in some areas Catholicism is looked on with suspicion. All of these behaviors can be attributed to people's irrational stereotypes and fears... When a society is polarized as much as the current situation in America, it becomes a fertile ground for the perpetuation of discrimination.
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Post by dragonlady on Mar 9, 2017 1:36:44 GMT -5
I suspect the urge to discriminate has been hiding in the closet all along, but the social and sometimes work related penalties have kept it there. People seem to feel they have been given permission to let it all hang out now. My personal feelings are that if you are in business selling anything to the general public, you have no legal right deciding who you will or will not sell to, etc. based on your religious biases. If you feel it is important to you and your religion to discriminate against certain groups of people, then turn your business into a private concern that makes it clear you have a limited clientele. Personally, I don't think it is very Christian to behave so; selling someone a wedding cake is a strictly commercial action and does not signify approval. Too often refusing to provide something to a non believer that they need or want is a way of punishing (or expressing disapproval) i.e.sneaky intolerance.
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Post by rebecca2013 on Mar 9, 2017 5:58:28 GMT -5
I suspect the urge to discriminate has been hiding in the closet all along, but the social and sometimes work related penalties have kept it there. People seem to feel they have been given permission to let it all hang out now. My personal feelings are that if you are in business selling anything to the general public, you have no legal right deciding who you will or will not sell to, etc. based on your religious biases. If you feel it is important to you and your religion to discriminate against certain groups of people, then turn your business into a private concern that makes it clear you have a limited clientele. Personally, I don't think it is very Christian to behave so; selling someone a wedding cake is a strictly commercial action and does not signify approval. Too often refusing to provide something to a non believer that they need or want is a way of punishing (or expressing disapproval) i.e.sneaky intolerance. excellent points!
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Post by Fireheart on Mar 9, 2017 9:19:42 GMT -5
I suspect the urge to discriminate has been hiding in the closet all along, but the social and sometimes work related penalties have kept it there. People seem to feel they have been given permission to let it all hang out now. My personal feelings are that if you are in business selling anything to the general public, you have no legal right deciding who you will or will not sell to, etc. based on your religious biases. If you feel it is important to you and your religion to discriminate against certain groups of people, then turn your business into a private concern that makes it clear you have a limited clientele. Personally, I don't think it is very Christian to behave so; selling someone a wedding cake is a strictly commercial action and does not signify approval. Too often refusing to provide something to a non believer that they need or want is a way of punishing (or expressing disapproval) i.e.sneaky intolerance. I agree completely. It also brings up the subject of picking & choosing the "sins" that you want to deny people service for. If you wouldn't sell a gay couple a wedding cake, then why would you sell one to a couple where both parties have been divorced multiple times?
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Post by QuickSilver on Mar 9, 2017 10:22:15 GMT -5
This comes down to what I refer to as the Christian buffet table. You can pick and choose what you want to be outraged over and what you will turn a blind eye to.
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Post by smitty45 on Mar 11, 2017 21:31:49 GMT -5
I like to call myself Spiritual without tagging a specific religion to my spirituality. With that said,, sure there is religious discrimination. There always has been and there will always be. It's not the religion, it;s just the human conditioning from a young age. Hate is learned,, no one is born to hate. Detect some contradiction?.. The Bible is full of it.
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Post by dragonlady on Mar 28, 2017 16:38:17 GMT -5
One of the huge problems with discrimination is that it is absorbed starting at a very young age - almost subliminally before the child has the intellectual tools to think through the issue rationally. My father was a major bigot and maybe if I had grown up in a home with him there daily, I could have succumbed to his bigotry. Fortunately I was not so frequently exposed; I grew up in foster homes. If a child grows up in a home which dispenses hate filled rhetoric about other races, religions, gender related issues etc., he/she will likely be very resistant to the idea of changing his/her perspective on any of these issue. It's been said "Give me the child until he is 7 and I will give you the adult." I had a husband who was very biased against Mexicans and Indians. I made it a big point to teach my children to judge people (if they had to judge them at all) to do so on the basis of behavior, etc. of the individual person. Fortunately, I think I was pretty successful. Because of this issue, it is difficult to almost impossible to stamp this out permanently - as we have seen with the recent resurgence of some really disgusting (not to mention dangerous) examples of discrimination
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Post by ellie1142545 on Mar 31, 2017 11:44:01 GMT -5
Very Much so.
Each and every one of us, have our own beliefs. It doesn't matter what your Denomination is, or if you even believe in what your fellow man believes in....
Our beliefs are as they are, because it's what is given to us to believe in....What ever your Faith is, that is what gives you what you believe in.
Most everyone knows, that my Faith lies in Jesus. He is the one who has given me all that I believe in....He's also given me the knowledge, that no one, absolutely no one, believes the exact same way I do...And oops! Even fellow Christians tell me I'm not a Christian, that I'm a liar, all because I don't believe exactly like they do...And that's okay...
It would be nice, if we could accept a person, along with their belief's, and gain knowledge. Knowledge, that will in no way change your own belief's, allowing you to accept that person's way of life, without all this discrimination....
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Post by Fireheart on Apr 17, 2017 19:18:58 GMT -5
Very Much so. Each and every one of us, have our own beliefs. It doesn't matter what your Denomination is, or if you even believe in what your fellow man believes in.... Our beliefs are as they are, because it's what is given to us to believe in....What ever your Faith is, that is what gives you what you believe in. Most everyone knows, that my Faith lies in Jesus. He is the one who has given me all that I believe in....He's also given me the knowledge, that no one, absolutely no one, believes the exact same way I do...And oops! Even fellow Christians tell me I'm not a Christian, that I'm a liar, all because I don't believe exactly like they do...And that's okay... It would be nice, if we could accept a person, along with their belief's, and gain knowledge. Knowledge, that will in no way change your own belief's, allowing you to accept that person's way of life, without all this discrimination.... I agree. People should be able to believe as they choose and allow others to do the same. They need to understand that other people believe just as strongly in their own religion (or lack thereof)and they need to learn not to push their particular beliefs on other people that may not believe the same.
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Post by butterfly on Sept 28, 2017 22:20:58 GMT -5
I suspect the urge to discriminate has been hiding in the closet all along, but the social and sometimes work related penalties have kept it there. People seem to feel they have been given permission to let it all hang out now. My personal feelings are that if you are in business selling anything to the general public, you have no legal right deciding who you will or will not sell to, etc. based on your religious biases. If you feel it is important to you and your religion to discriminate against certain groups of people, then turn your business into a private concern that makes it clear you have a limited clientele. Personally, I don't think it is very Christian to behave so; selling someone a wedding cake is a strictly commercial action and does not signify approval. Too often refusing to provide something to a non believer that they need or want is a way of punishing (or expressing disapproval) i.e.sneaky intolerance. I absolutely agree with you. If you have a business open to the public, you have no right to deny service to anyone based on your religious preferences. I strongly believe that this is true, and that once we permit businesses to decide they will not provide goods or services to groups or individuals based on religion, race, sexual orientation, or anything else, we are heading into VERY dark and dangerous waters.
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Post by Sunkist on Sept 28, 2017 23:10:36 GMT -5
I suspect the urge to discriminate has been hiding in the closet all along, but the social and sometimes work related penalties have kept it there. People seem to feel they have been given permission to let it all hang out now. My personal feelings are that if you are in business selling anything to the general public, you have no legal right deciding who you will or will not sell to, etc. based on your religious biases. If you feel it is important to you and your religion to discriminate against certain groups of people, then turn your business into a private concern that makes it clear you have a limited clientele. Personally, I don't think it is very Christian to behave so; selling someone a wedding cake is a strictly commercial action and does not signify approval. Too often refusing to provide something to a non believer that they need or want is a way of punishing (or expressing disapproval) i.e.sneaky intolerance. I absolutely agree with you. If you have a business open to the public, you have no right to deny service to anyone based on your religious preferences. I strongly believe that this is true, and that once we permit businesses to decide they will not provide goods or services to groups or individuals based on religion, race, sexual orientation, or anything else, we are heading into VERY dark and dangerous waters. Kinda like what one of my older relatives told me it was like in the south before Civil Rights, true?
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Post by Sunkist on Sept 28, 2017 23:17:26 GMT -5
... With no doubts, there is a definite religious discrimination which is exacerbated by the current divided nature of thinking here in the United States. My dear friend Randah from the FBI wears a Hijab to work and other places... At the FBI she said sometimes... even there she has certain "feelings" that people are looking at her "differently" In public in certain stores, she feels that she is "overly" watched which amuses her being that she is a FBI Special Agent but she said in conversation that she has become indifferent as you can't change people's preconceived notions about Muslims. Visibility of course is a key element(wearing of the hijab) is associated with greater perceived discrimination. Studies have shown that perceived discrimination among Muslim Americans is related to the expression of increased vigilance and suspicion. This has been heighten by the increased focus and paranoia from the very top structures of this government. As for my Jewish friends, they have cited that since the election season and now.... they have felt that the racism and overtones have been on the increase. One of my staff is an ordained rabbi who has suffered having paint splattered all over his car, had his wife's car tires slashed (all four) and indicated that he had to actually move to another area in December because of these issues... One could argue that it was just random vandalism but I think David was correct as he was a visible target. He wears a kippah, and like a hijab, undeniably places him within that religion on sight. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter in an area which was hands down Trump.. Does this mean anything? Perhaps not but his sign for his support was ripped twice and painted with a swastika... I am not sure if it was a comment against David and his family or of Bernie but in either case he felt pressure to move out. Why is this happening? I believe that certain elements have slipped out of the swamps and are feeling emboldened. There is a lot to be said for having a good deal of important people in high places who have shadowy backgrounds and spew racism, White supremacy and who espouse and openly endorse violence. And Mexicans?? Just look at popular culture for a moment... Mexicans are often portrayed as drug dealers, lawn workers and corrupt policemen in the movies. Most are Catholic and in some areas Catholicism is looked on with suspicion. All of these behaviors can be attributed to people's irrational stereotypes and fears... When a society is polarized as much as the current situation in America, it becomes a fertile ground for the perpetuation of discrimination. I don't know if you'll agree or disagree, especially since I don't know your age or where you grew up, but where you say 'divided,' 'polarized,' etc., the general idea in the distant past (although not everyone subscribed to it) was called the Melting Pot; in recent decades, 'multiculturalism' has replaced it- and from what I've seen, that accounts for much of the divisions these days. Instead of 'Americans,' people are now (fill in blanks)hyphenAmericans, (fill in blanks)hyphencommunities, with people more concerned about their specific 'cultures' than interacting with and getting along with other people. It's certainly important for everyone to be proud of where they or their families came from, but all this modern approach is doing is making it about 'differences'- 'us' vs. 'them.' And if it keeps up this way, it won't be long before the U.S. is nothing but quantities of 'communities' where everyone 'sticks to their own kind,' hating or being suspicious of anyone who isn't in that particular group.
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Post by butterfly on Sept 29, 2017 12:24:07 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with you. If you have a business open to the public, you have no right to deny service to anyone based on your religious preferences. I strongly believe that this is true, and that once we permit businesses to decide they will not provide goods or services to groups or individuals based on religion, race, sexual orientation, or anything else, we are heading into VERY dark and dangerous waters. Kinda like what one of my older relatives told me it was like in the south before Civil Rights, true? Actually, I was thinking exactly the same thing about its being like the pre-civil rights days. Not much difference at all between refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple and refusing to let certain people sit at a lunch counter -- which is precisely why this kind of thinking (my religion forbids me to bake a cake for certain people) is SO wrong. And, I don't remember the Bible saying anything about baking of wedding cakes, but I do remember it says we should love our neighbor.
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Post by dragonlady on Sept 29, 2017 14:06:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately that mentality is still very much alive and well in much of the South and some areas of the North. It gets passed down from one generation to the next. Until recently it had been relegated to the closet. trump was instrumental in letting it out
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