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Post by notbob on Oct 20, 2016 15:23:33 GMT -5
Can anyone here prove the existence of God...or Satan? I'm talking real proof - something that would stand up in a court of law or in a laboratory.
If not, then why would any of you believe either exists?
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Post by livelonger on Oct 20, 2016 17:29:57 GMT -5
I'm talking real proof - something that would stand up in a court of law or in a laboratory. That requires a doubting mind, which is that of a scientist. There are no laws until proof, and even then they can be returned to a theory. The word 'holy' as an adjective, is taught to end thought about the subject that follows. Thus, 'holy word' is intended to convey that can't be doubted because it's 'the word of a god.' There's no way out of that loop, until examination. For many, what they were taught as a child is enough to let it be. People are afraid to examine, although it's the only way to gain a proof. People caught in the loop can only accept the existence of unproved beings. It used to be that people were thrown out of communities or killed if they thought otherwise, branded as heretics. Now people are out of the community to begin with, or are in families that have other ideas than the general community. Secular law protects citizens from religious abuse. There are too many different denominations and alternatives to force compliance to no thought. Royal dictatorships could excuse bad deeds as the work of the Devil, Satan, or other mythic beings. Then they could show success as blessings of the ruler. It's amazing that the con game invented for dictators actually had that many people believing whatever they made up. This US democracy and others are surprising in that citizens examine the actions of their dictators (corporate executives are at the top of the ruling dictatorship of corporations) without belief that they are all ruling for the benefit of people, nor that they are in that position because a god blessed them as special people.
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Post by notbob on Oct 20, 2016 17:58:07 GMT -5
I'm talking real proof - something that would stand up in a court of law or in a laboratory. "That requires a doubting mind, which is that of a scientist. There are no laws until proof, and even then they can be returned to a theory."
I confess, I have a doubting mind. I don't understand people believing in something they can't see, hear, touch or smell. They claim they can see him all around us, but they're referring to things they believe he created so there's still no proof. They cite coincidences they have no answers for yet coincidences happen all the time - some more or less significant than others, but still no proof. They refer to their "book," but there are many books with different versions of a so-called historical record and there are numerous contradictions within all of those books, so there's still no proof. I ask no more from religion than I do from science. Whatever you claim, show proof - real proof. Scientists continually cross-check each other and look for flaws in other's theories. Religion doesn't do that. Scientists continually look for new information. Religions don't. Religions claim to have the answer - an answer they can't prove. Scientists understand they don't have a conclusive answer which is why they continue searching. If scientists someday claim there is a god and they have scientific evidence to prove it, I can accept that but I won't hold my breath.
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Post by livelonger on Oct 20, 2016 21:22:59 GMT -5
A kind of proof of mine is that we exist. We can be grateful that we exist. We can respect that we have life and others have a life. We can be grateful that parents created life. That is a kind of gift that can be the basis of a belief.
Whether there is a particular 'who' to be grateful to, or the unfathomable that can receive our gratitude, is a personal matter.
If there truly is an eternity, unending, -- that provides a possibility of infinite repeats of life. That is a theory.
Few religions accept that ending of life is a benefit.
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Post by notbob on Oct 20, 2016 23:46:12 GMT -5
A kind of proof of mine is that we exist. We can be grateful that we exist. We can respect that we have life and others have a life. We can be grateful that parents created life. That is a kind of gift that can be the basis of a belief. Whether there is a particular 'who' to be grateful to, or the unfathomable that can receive our gratitude, is a personal matter. If there truly is an eternity, unending, -- that provides a possibility of infinite repeats of life. That is a theory. Few religions accept that ending of life is a benefit. I begrudge no one regarding their religious beliefs. My wife is deeply religious, yet she understands why I believe the way I do. We discuss it occasionally and we're always respectful toward each other. We accept who we each are. I agree, it's a personal thing.
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Post by livelonger on Oct 21, 2016 12:29:34 GMT -5
Yes. It's good form, or part of a belief system to respect the right to believe whatever, However, it's not a good part of a belief system to have to ignore beliefs that are damaging. As said before, making imaginary creatures take the blame for bad acts is dysfunctional as is granting imaginary beings the credit for good acts, though it is fun to amuse with stories. The belief that Pharoah or Caesar was a god, and the Greek myths, were human creations that led to other stories.
As there's no way to educate to have people believe unprovable, illogical, fallacies they've learned, it's best to respect the person, as unless they do an actual damaging act, it's moot.
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Post by ellie1142545 on Feb 23, 2017 10:44:40 GMT -5
I understand your point of view but I respectfully disagree with the details. Satan only has power if we give it to him. We give him power when we succumb to temptation, indulge ourselves in behaviors that we know are wrong. We all do it, some indulgences we see as harmless, others like spite, malice and whatever hurts others undoubtedly are worse. But I think all wrongdoings contribute to Satan's power.
I don't believe God is ever powerless. He gave us all free will which extends beyond choosing between right and wrong but also how we protect ourselves and deal with those who would harm us. If we deny his existence or live our lives without employing the tools he gave us for successfully living, how can he step in and revoke our free will.
Like many fathers/parents, maybe God sees us doing wrong but hey, we are adults and must be in charge of our own lives. JMHO. :) I couldn't have said it any more eloquently. You are so right, NBotca...
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Post by notca on Feb 23, 2017 19:41:24 GMT -5
On the subject of belief I heard a story that bears telling. Good for a chuckle!
A certain Presbyterian minister with an interest in astronomy built a model of the universe and hung it from the ceiling of his study like a mobile. The minister has a close friend who was an atheist. They had spent many pleasant hours discussing their reasons for their respective beliefs in the existence or non-existence of God. Just after hanging his model universe up, the friend paid a visit to the minister. "That's beautiful", exclaimed the atheist. "So detailed and intricate! Who made it?" The minister, tongue-in-cheek replied, "Why, nobody made it. It just 'happened." All his friend could say was, "Touche!"
I often think of this story when I view the wonders of nature. The intricate details of flowers, the instincts of animals and the roles they play, the way the human body functions, the order of the universe as we know it, it all seems too perfect to have 'just happened'. It is very easy for me to believe that there is a Supreme Power, a Power much too far above our capabilities for us to even imagine or begin to understand.
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Post by ellie1142545 on Feb 27, 2017 11:03:06 GMT -5
Simply put....God is...The way....The Truth....The life....
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Post by Fireheart on Mar 7, 2017 19:59:44 GMT -5
A kind of proof of mine is that we exist. We can be grateful that we exist. We can respect that we have life and others have a life. We can be grateful that parents created life. That is a kind of gift that can be the basis of a belief. Whether there is a particular 'who' to be grateful to, or the unfathomable that can receive our gratitude, is a personal matter. If there truly is an eternity, unending, -- that provides a possibility of infinite repeats of life. That is a theory. Few religions accept that ending of life is a benefit. I begrudge no one regarding their religious beliefs. My wife is deeply religious, yet she understands why I believe the way I do. We discuss it occasionally and we're always respectful toward each other. We accept who we each are. I agree, it's a personal thing. Sorry...I know that I am responding to an older post, but I was reading through them. I agree with you completely. I have friends of various religions and I find that the diversity only adds to my knowledge and understanding of others. There is no reason at all that people of various religions shouldn't be able to get along and be able to respectfully discuss their beliefs while, at the same time, not pushing their beliefs on others. I believe diversity is a wonderful thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 17:22:15 GMT -5
Smitty45 said: "If God is within, then so is Satan... seems to me Satan has more power though."
There is no Satan. It is another story made up by religions to put fear in us.
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Post by TheSource on Mar 20, 2017 17:13:23 GMT -5
Smitty45 said: "If God is within, then so is Satan... seems to me Satan has more power though." There is no Satan. It is another story made up by religions to put fear in us. Ruby, I am intrigued by your post.
I am a believer in God and heaven and Satan and hell. I agree with what smitty45 had said in his post about God and Satan dwelling within. However, in notca's post, I also agreed with her that Satan only has power if we give it to him or succumb to the weakness of temptation.
The power of good and evil resides in all of us. I believe that it is up to each and every one of us which power we choose to wield in our journey through this thing we call life. I don't know why you say that there is no Satan when Satan represents all that is evil. And there is certainly an extraordinary amount of evil in the world around us that manifests its ugly head each and every single day.
I respectfully ask why you believe it is all a "story"?
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Post by formerlyme on Mar 20, 2017 17:47:12 GMT -5
Smitty45 said: "If God is within, then so is Satan... seems to me Satan has more power though." There is no Satan. It is another story made up by religions to put fear in us. Ruby, I am intrigued by your post.
I am a believer in God and heaven and Satan and hell. I agree with what smitty45 had said in his post about God and Satan dwelling within. However, in notca 's post, I also agreed with her that Satan only has power if we give it to him or succumb to the weakness of temptation.
The power of good and evil resides in all of us. I believe that it is up to each and every one of us which power we choose to wield in our journey through this thing we call life. I don't know why you say that there is no Satan when Satan represents all that is evil. And there is certainly an extraordinary amount of evil in the world around us that manifests its ugly head each and every single day.
I respectfully ask why you believe it is all a "story"? I respect people of faith, whatever faith it may be, and envy the comfort, guidance, and certainty it must provide them. I agree that the potential for good and evil resides in everyone, but what path we follow is a matter of choice that has nothing to do with a God or a Devil. I believe that both God/Heaven and The Devil/Hell are human constructs, created in an attempt to explain what happens after death, and to steer people toward goodness. I have personal spiritual feelings, but they are too elusive (even to me sometimes) to fit any man-made religion. I suppose that makes me an agnostic of sorts.
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Post by Fireheart on Mar 25, 2017 16:07:09 GMT -5
Ruby, I am intrigued by your post.
I am a believer in God and heaven and Satan and hell. I agree with what smitty45 had said in his post about God and Satan dwelling within. However, in notca 's post, I also agreed with her that Satan only has power if we give it to him or succumb to the weakness of temptation.
The power of good and evil resides in all of us. I believe that it is up to each and every one of us which power we choose to wield in our journey through this thing we call life. I don't know why you say that there is no Satan when Satan represents all that is evil. And there is certainly an extraordinary amount of evil in the world around us that manifests its ugly head each and every single day.
I respectfully ask why you believe it is all a "story"? I respect people of faith, whatever faith it may be, and envy the comfort, guidance, and certainty it must provide them. I agree that the potential for good and evil resides in everyone, but what path we follow is a matter of choice that has nothing to do with a God or a Devil. I believe that both God/Heaven and The Devil/Hell are human constructs, created in an attempt to explain what happens after death, and to steer people toward goodness. I have personal spiritual feelings, but they are too elusive (even to me sometimes) to fit any man-made religion. I suppose that makes me an agnostic of sorts. ...and if that's the way you feel and it works for you, that is great! All beliefs are welcome here. You don't have to "define" your religion or spirituality to anyone or even completely to yourself. Follow the path that works for you and be happy in it. :)
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Post by rjhangover on Dec 11, 2017 13:54:09 GMT -5
I respect people of faith, whatever faith it may be, and envy the comfort, guidance, and certainty it must provide them. I agree that the potential for good and evil resides in everyone, but what path we follow is a matter of choice that has nothing to do with a God or a Devil. I believe that both God/Heaven and The Devil/Hell are human constructs, created in an attempt to explain what happens after death, and to steer people toward goodness. I have personal spiritual feelings, but they are too elusive (even to me sometimes) to fit any man-made religion. I suppose that makes me an agnostic of sorts. ...and if that's the way you feel and it works for you, that is great! All beliefs are welcome here. You don't have to "define" your religion or spirituality to anyone or even completely to yourself. Follow the path that works for you and be happy in it. :) I used to think that religions were man made....But God created everything that exists, according to the bible, the Torah and the Koran. Now I think religions exist as a way of understanding...Science is a religion too, a way of understanding. Understanding the "truth" about reality, is the ultimate goal for seekers. Most are followers though...it's easier for them to follow their culture's religion than to seek the truth. That's why they are called "the flock"....sheep need to be lead. The problem according to Jesus, is the shepherds of the flocks.
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